Talk:Jean Shepherd

WOR link

I changed the WOR link from WOR (a disambiguation page) back to WOR-AM which is the correct link. Shepherd worked at WOR-AM. Why would we want to point to a disambiguation page instead? Bill 20:59, 19 Apr 2004 (UTC)

Year of birth

Is the author sure this is the correct year of birth for Shepherd? Other biographies have it listed as 1929. As I understand it, there is some controversy on the topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Vandy (talk • contribs) 23:20, 14 August 2005 (UTC)

There is no longer any legitimate controversy (if there ever was one). Shepherd's birth certificate, as well as numerous other such official records, is now readily available on Ancestry.com. I have also obtained a copy of his long-form death certificate, as filed in Lee County, Florida, where he passed away. The controversy was created by Shepherd himself, who almost always lied about his age, among other things. His professional resume, which he provided to employers, stated -- incorrectly -- that he was born on July 26, 1929, exactly eight years later than the actual event. The need to make eight years "disappear" led to a number of other "professional prevarications." Don Columbia (talk) 01:21, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Ancestry.com is unreliable per WP:RSP but Some of these sources may be usable under WP:BLPPRIMARY, but secondary sources, where available, are usually preferred.

His NYT obituary still says His date of birth has been given variously as either July 21 or July 26, in years ranging from 1921 to 1929.

@Don Columbia Did you ever find the birth certificate? Can you link to it? Is it appropriate to host stuff like that in Creative Commons? WP:BLPPRIMARY says Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses. Where primary-source material has been discussed by a reliable secondary source, it may be acceptable to rely on it to augment the secondary source, subject to the restrictions of this policy, no original research, and the other sourcing policies. So I don't think that's enough. Kire1975 (talk) 02:06, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

I have posted copies of both his actual birth certificate and actual death certificate on Shepherd's memorial on Find a Grave, both providing his birth date as July 26, 1921. Moreover, Bergmann confirms that date being recorded on his birth certificate in his book, "Excelsior, You Fathead! The Art and Enigma of Jean Shepherd," Bergmann, Eugene B., Applause Theatre & Cinema Books, New York, 2005, at pp. 23, 442n. v. Don Columbia (talk) 11:13, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

Not quite sure whether this is relevant, but Find a Grave is not a reliable source precisely because it posts/accepts user-generated content, so it definitely shouldn't be used in citations. DonIago (talk) 12:53, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

First, in my prior post I meant to say Bergmann's published book (long cited on Shepherd's Wikipedia entry) refers to Shepherd's actual death certificate -- not birth certificate, my error -- accurately showing his birth date of July 26, 1921, at page 23 and note v at the top of page 442.

Second, Find a Grave is also a place to archive documents and records. On Shepherd's memorial page there, copies of his original, government-issued birth and death certificates are archived, each showing a birth date of July 26, 1921. Don Columbia (talk) 21:47, 20 July 2023 (UTC)

My father's death certificate "accurately" says he died of a non-fatal disease. A birth certificate would be better. Do you have a link to this memorial page? Kire1975 (talk) 00:14, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

My only point was that FaG (an unfortunate acronym, but here we are) shouldn't be used in citations for the reasons discussed at the link I provided. As long as that's not the case, and it doesn't appear to be the case at this time, this specific concern is, happily, a moot point. DonIago (talk) 01:53, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

Here is the FaG link: https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/18065346/jean-parker-shepherd

I also just posted there his WWII draft registration, completed and signed in Shepherd's own hand. That document is followed by his death certificate and then his birth certificate. Each of the foregoing three records show his birth date as July 26, 1921. To see them all, click on any of the photos to open the gallery, then horizontally scroll to the right by clicking on the arrows at the right margin.

I also just quickly went through my collection of published biographies. I see at least one has his correct birth date (July 26, 1921): International Television Almanac (1957), ed. James D. Moser, Quigley Publishing Company, New York, NY, p. 249.

And the Radio Hall of Fame, into which Shepherd was inducted, also has the correct birth date in its online bio for him: https://www.radiohalloffame.com/jean-shepherd

In any event, notwithstanding Wikipedias's guidelines, the most trustworthy evidence -- I am a longtime trial lawyer -- are the three official records posted on FaG. Each of those would be admissible in a court of law -- if not Wikipedia -- and taken by the court as dispositive of the issue absent any more compelling evidence to the contrary. And any hearsay newspaper obituary, such as that now cited by Wikipedia, would not be such evidence; indeed, it may well be considered inadmissible hearsay for the truth of the matter of Shepherd's birth date. Bergmann's book, however, probably meets Wikipedia's guidelines; however, I must say, his book contains numerous other factual errors of omission and commission. Don Columbia (talk) 23:51, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

If Bergmann's book is known to have erroneous information, maybe it would be better to use the Radio Hall of Fame as the citation for Shepherd's birth date rather than citing Bermann's book and potentially leading other editors to do the same, not realizing that it's a flawed reference? DonIago (talk) 14:30, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Fine with me. I have no problem with your making the edit, if you wish. BTW, Bergmann just passed away ten days ago. Rest in peace. His book is a useful reference, but he often said it was not a biography, even though treated as such by many others. It was primarily an appreciation and explication of Shepherd's media work. Therefore, the biographical details are often not quite right. Don Columbia (talk) 23:46, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

South side, not South Chicago

Here in Chicago we refer to the area of the city south of Madison Street as the south side, not South Chicago. May I suggest changing the line, "Born in South Chicago, Illinois" to either, "Born in Chicago, Illinois," (accurate) or "Born on the south side of Chicago, Illinois" (meaningless to anyone who doesn't live in Chicago, but more correct). —Preceding unsigned comment added by AlvinMGO (talk • contribs) 18:37, 20 August 2005 (UTC)

1921 birth?

I like 1921 as his birth year. I have a recording of one of his shows from July 26, 1964 (his birthday) where he says "..by God, I made it - 23 years old today!". If he was born in 1921 he'd have been turning 43, thus the joke - User:Mcwatson 12:52, 07 Jun 2006 (UTC)

The 1930 census indicates Shepherd was 8 years old at the time. Thus, his birth year would be 1921 (assuming the census was taken prior to July 26). Lmonteros (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

Who's Who

Please don't remove signatures and time-stamps from comments. I was the one who suggested the "south side" change, and I'd like to get credit. Thank you.

BTW, here in Chicago we'd say Jean was, "born on the south side," not "in". As long as you're going to use a Chicago colloquialism, you may as well go all the way.

--AlvinMGO 14:39, 12 September 2006 (UTC)

Job Description

"Shep" used to bristle when people called him a "comic" or "comedian". He hoped to be remembered as a humorist. 75.35.219.1 16:18, 9 December 2006 (UTC)

Father's Occupation

I added the 1930 census information regarding his father's occupation and the makeup of the household. arkansasladybug 19:31, 25 December 2006 (UTC)

It is always dangerous to rely on a single decennial census enumeration. As is the case with this one, they often contain errors. Here, incorrect places of birth (Kansas) were provided for Shepherd Sr's parents. They were actually born in Indiana, but lived for a time in Kansas. Perhaps Shep Sr., who ostensibly provided the incorrect information, did not know or recall the correct information. In any event, earlier census information provided by or for Emmett and Flora Shepherd indicate the correct places of birth (Indiana). Don Columbia (talk) 01:27, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Parent's Place of Birth

Made correction to parent's place of birth. Should have read "Illinois" rather than "Indiana." arkansasladybug 22:31, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Citations

I strongly suspect that the main reason someone filled this article with "citation needed" tags and an unreferenced template isn't so much the dearth of citations as the large number of POV statements. The text refers to various Shepherd efforts as "scintillating", "striking", "fondly remembered" and so on. Under Wikipedia guidelines, the article should not make such judgments, but instead cite reliable sources as making such claims.

I've added several citations where some of the "fact" tags were, especially in cases where the claim was enormously easy to source and the person doing the tagging was perhaps going overboard a bit. However, there are a number of facts that still should get citations, such as the Nettleton marriage and more about the radio career. Also it would be good if someone can take the time to tone down some of the more fannish statements about how wonderful the radio show was, and instead report on the show's following in more neutral terms. This is not something I feel up to doing myself, since my knowledge of most of his work is extremely slight and secondhand. Thanks! --Karen | Talk | contribs 06:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Concerning citations for Shep being a "perennial favorite" at Rutgers, it is difficult for me to envision authoritative sources that fit within Wiki guidelines. Shep did perform at Rutgers several times during my undergraduate years there, 1962 to 1966, always to standing room only crowds. I would have no difficulty rounding up classmates that would attest to Shep's draw. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Marainlaw (talk • contribs) 13:15, 4 November 2009 (UTC)

Rousseau and "I"

I've also removed the following from the article:

In this sense, he was comparable to Jean-Jacques Rousseau, who, while writing extensively on the education of children did act poorly toward those who were close to him. During the 1960's in his radio broadcasts Shep would often credit "kids" with understanding the philosophy in his shows better than adults. Rousseau and Shep both held this idealistic view of "kids" but yet seemed to resent them when dealing with the actuality of child rearing. The similarity carries on at they progressed into old age and each developed unique traits that made them difficult to deal with, Rousseau with his paranoia and Shep with his "curmudgeon" self description that lent itself to long talks on what he considered a lack of respect that cut off his gaining a national TV audience. Once, after a show at Princeton in the mid 90's, I asked him about the TV series he had created for ABC and gone out to LA to write. This was done but not even a pilot ever aired. He simply said, "I wished I never did them." And changed the subject. If they were produced, somewhere, these shows could be in cans...and could they be a treasure trove? If they are on 2 inch or 1 inch tape their time either has or is running out.

The extended comparison of Shepherd and Rousseau falls under the category of original research, since it is an original commentary and cites no scholarship on the subject. If an article or book or somesuch has drawn a parallel between the two writers, then it should be cited as a source; otherwise it should be omitted here, and perhaps written up on someone's blog or website. Since Wikipedia articles are collectively written, they cannot have first person accounts in any case, except as clearly marked, brief quotations from some cited source. Additionally, the whole observation about Shepherd's contradictory attitudes about kids in general and his kids in particular is tangential at best to the subject heading about fact vs. fiction. Sorry. --Karen | Talk | contribs 06:57, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Libertineback.jpg

Image:Libertineback.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 14:45, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Mike Daisey?

Why the reference to Mike Daisey at the end? He's not well-known so unless there have been copyright infringement claims, why mention him? Shepherd's style was unusual, but not unique, so it makes sense that someone else could employ it without having heard of Shepherd. Lmonteros (talk) 23:59, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

I am removing the paragraph about Mike Daisey because it has absolutely no connection with Jean Shepherd. --Owen (talk) 15:37, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

FuManchu

I listened to Shep every night while I was in High School; even saw him once having a beer at the LIMELIGHT! Besides reading Robert Service on his show, he often read from Sax Rohmer's "FuManchu"; to a background of classical guitar music. He spoke quite enthusiastically of "Karamaneh" a seductive female character in the early "FuManchu" stories, who was known to "put her moves on" the incredibly naive and "Dr. Watson-like" Dr. Petrie. —Preceding unsigned comment added by TRIKER1 (talk • contribs) 18:01, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

CW sending

I have heard that Jean Shepherd was the world champion CW [like Morse Code] sender for several years. Does anyone know??--TRIKER1 (talk) 18:06, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

He was not. Indeed, Shep held an Advanced Class amateur radio license (K2ORS), which required sending and receiving Morse code at 13 wpm. He never qualified for the Amateur Extra Class license, which required sending and receiving code at 20 wpm (a speed far below the record). Furthermore, he was often heard on the ham bands, but virtually always using SSB or FM (voice modes), not CW. Finally, Shep himself told a story about how he came in contact with someone who was far better than he was at Morse code, a story intended to convey the point that no matter how good you think you are, someone else out there is better. Excelsior! Don Columbia (talk) 21:22, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Army Stories

I was surprised to see no mention of his Army stories of being a WW-II draftee in the everglades. I recall one story in Playboy with the (approximate) name Zinzmiester and the Treacherouse Eighter from Decatur, as well as his recounting of a VD training film on an LP made of a performance at a college. There were announcements in Playboy that his Army stories would be collected as his kid stories were, titled (if memory serves) The Secret Mission of the Blue-assed Buzzard, but though eagerly anticipated by at least a few fans (me and my friends at a minimum) it never happened. 64.252.65.20 (talk) 23:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

For those interested in Shepherd's Army experiences, this brief NPR piece discusses the book, "Shep's Army: Bummers, Blisters and Boondoggles": http://www.npr.org/2013/08/24/214837410/bummers-blisters-and-boondoggles-a-jokester-joins-the-army

Thank you, Wordreader (talk) 00:59, 29 December 2014 (UTC)

Nickname

Other than when used in quoted text, or when specifically referring to his nickname, I've changed all occurrences of "Shep" to read "Shepherd." Hemingway's nickname was "Papa," but it wouldn't be worthy of an encyclopedic entry to refer to him as such.Zengakuren (talk) 21:34, 13 December 2009 (UTC)

Comical Readings

I used to listen to Jean Shepherd in the early 70s when I was a college student. He would sometimes recite poems or plays interspersed with his commentary, like Tennyson's "Charge of the Light Brigade" or Beckett's "Krapp's Last Tape". It was hysterical.Tom Cod (talk) 04:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Bahn Frei Polka link redirects to myspace

The link for Bahn Frei Polka redirects to somewhere in myspace that has nothing to do with the music in question. Does someone have time to wayback this and fix it? Snezzy (talk) 19:04, 21 July 2011 (UTC)

Changed link to "http://www.flicklives.com/Music/Bahn_frei/Bahn_Frei.htm" which is plausibly better. Snezzy (talk) 11:29, 5 October 2011 (UTC)

On the subject of Bahn Frei Polka, when asked, Shep would say he did not know the title of the theme music. I once suggested to Shep outright that it was the Bahn Frei Polka. Shep categorically denied that it was. I would be interested in incorporating that into the main article, but suspect that Wikipedia would frown upon my recounting a personal experience like that with the subject. Thoughts? Allan Marain 18:36, 16 September 2013 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Marainlaw (talk • contribs)

When this link ("The Bahn Frei Polka") is "clicked on" in the "Music" chapter, YOU RECEIVE A CRUDE/CRASS MESSAGE: "SORRY FATHEAD ... THIS PAGE DOES NOT EXIST." ?someone please correct?! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.12.124.188 (talk) 04:59, 25 December 2013 (UTC)

That was not intended to be a crude, crass message. That was quoting, in part, a so-called "Battle Cry" that Shepherd himself frequently used on the radio. Indeed, "Excelsior, You Fathead!" is the name of a published book about the life and works of Jean Shepherd authored by Eugene B. Bergmann. "Fathead" is a term now commonly used to refer to a serious Shep fan; however, non-fans don't know that. With regard to Bahn Frei!, the link now directs to a web page and essay about the Eduard Strauss polka, including where Shepherd told about how it became his theme music. Shepherd's story was mostly (but not entirely) true, as discussed in the essay. Much of what Shep said over the years was intentionally false (for reasons only known to him). Don Columbia (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Leigh Brown Link in Bio links to the wrong person

The link for Leigh Brown links to a football player of the same name. I'm not a wikipedia pro, though, so I don't know how to fix it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.123.61.172 (talk) 23:08, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Nancy Leigh (nee Prescott) Siroka Shepherd (aka "Leigh Brown") (1939-1998) is worthy of her own Wikipedia listing. She was Jean Shepherd's producer, assistant, fan, muse and fourth wife. She co-wrote the classic movie A Christmas Story with Shepherd and Bob Clark. She also published a novel in 1975, The Show Gypsies, about the world of horse shows. See, e.g.: http://www.flicklives.com/index.php?pg=348&ID=X209 Don Columbia (talk) 21:13, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

Recent additions to Filmography are unverified

and some are questionable. Can anyone check on these? Paul (User:Lpgeffen) (talk) 17:56, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Background music

Shepherd enjoyed using "strange" music as background for his readings. Two come to mind: Banjoreno and Boodle am Shake. Wild stuff - they're available on YOUTUBE. I know because:"I vas dere Charlie!"

TRIKER1 (talk) 21:59, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Unsourced material

Below information was tagged for needing sources long-term. Feel free to reinsert with appropriate references. DonIago (talk) 16:34, 22 December 2014 (UTC)

I have corrected the spelling of Adrian's first name and inserted her middle initial, as well as provided the middle name of her brother Randall. The foregoing information was obtained from Ancestry.com (only available through a paid subscription and thus not publicly accessible by all), as well as documents filed with a bankruptcy court. Don Columbia (talk) 02:06, 2 January 2016 (UTC)

I have been researching in depth Jean Shepherd's life and career for about three years. I have uncovered much about him that no one else, including his own estranged children (or even Shepherd himself, in some cases), knew. But it is all original research, apparently not meeting Wikipedia guidelines. I have been posting much of it on the website Flick Lives, which has frequently been rejected as an unreliable source by Wikipedia editors. In any event, here is one such set of facts -- uncovered from primary-source documents, official records and interviews -- which is currently a hole in Shepherd's Wikipedia listing: It has long been rumored that Shepherd had four wives, but no one was able to validate the rumor, let alone identify the first wife. I have. She was named Barbara O. Mattoon, a native of Hammond, Indiana, with whom Shepherd worked at his first professional radio position at WJOB. He was a young announcer, and she was the station's music librarian. He married her in 1947 in Hammond. See: http://www.flicklives.com/index.php?pg=348&ID=x754

I also recently learned that they were divorced in 1948 in Kentucky. And I just obtained Barbara's picture from her daughter by her second husband. (It took me some two years to locate her.) Barbara was quite attractive, as stated in the local Hammond papers during WWII in articles about her corresponding with 31 different service members, signing each letter "with love." Barbara looked just like a young Bette Davis.

Excelsior! Don Columbia (talk) 21:57, 1 January 2016 (UTC)

Marriages, children and death

==Marriages, children and death== Jean Shepherd was married four times. Barbara Olive Mattoon: 1947-1948 Joan Laverne Warner: September 9, 1950 – 1960 (divorced in Mexico) Son: Randall Warner Shepherd born 1951 Daughter: Adrian Leah Shepherd born December 16, 1957. Lois Nettleton: December 3, 1960 – 1967 (divorced) Leigh Brown: March 2, 1977 – July 16, 1998 (her death) Shepherd spent his final years in relative seclusion on Sanibel Island, Florida, with his wife Leigh Brown. She was also his producer at WOR, and played many roles in his varied career. As Shepherd attained a rotund figure in his later years, Leigh would refer to him as "ma pamplemousse," or, "my grapefruit." He died in Lee Memorial Hospital, Fort Myers, Florida, in 1999 of "natural causes."

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Dubious refs about best-seller list

&nbSP;&nbSP; numerous sources seem to talk about rumors that it made the bestseller list or even specifically That of the New York Times. Jerzy•t 18:48, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

....  but there is  suspiciously no mention of a specific date,  so it is possible that the rumors may have been believed by some of our contributors without any verification.  Jerzy•t 18:54, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

....  but there is  suspiciously no mention of a specific date,  so it is possible that the rumors may have been believed by some of our contributors without any verification.  Jerzy•t 18:54, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

You are indeed correct. I, Libertine never actually made the New York Times best seller list -- either before its publication or after (at least in the months immediately following its publication by Doubleday, who never claimed it did). The NYT best seller list appeared in the Sunday NYT book review section, where I read every single one for 1956. Shepherd's book never appeared there.Don Columbia (talk) 15:40, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Show time

I distinctly remember the show running 9:15 - 10:00 in the 60s. I think the live shows from the Limelight started at 10. 184.60.251.238 (talk) 18:42, 24 December 2021 (UTC)